PAHERP Forum » Herp Talk

1. 

   Rattler
   Member

   Just curious if anyonne heard anything about the study that was taking place up in the north central pa. I know that it is over with, I think last year was the last for it. I also think there main topic was to see what effect the timbering and logging industry had on the sankes. I talked to Bill Monroe a couple of times about it, he was heading it from what i understand but they were not really wanting to release any info about it. I do know that they had many snakes with transmitters in them and pit tags also. The last time i talked to him I believe they had around 200 snakes involved in the study the biggest was a 55" male black rattler. He did tell me that they were finding some interesting info that they previously did not know, thats why I am curious. I know one thing the area they were doing the study in has alot of snakes. Anyways, any info would be appreciated.

   Posted 2 years ago #
2. 

   krloucks
   Moderator

   One of our members may chime in....He knows a lot about studies going on but not necessarily that one. I will allow him to self id though.

   Posted 2 years ago #
3. 

   flip3238
   Member

   Rattler-
   You were dead on with your description of the study. They are looking at how logging effects the movements and acticvities of TR in northcentral PA. The study has been ongoing for at least 6 years because I first heard about it while talking with Dr. Howard Reinert in '03. They are also doing DNA work by taking blood samples from these snakes, as these dens in northcentral are considered some of the best and largest in the state.

   Posted 2 years ago #
4. 

   krloucks
   Moderator

   Thanks for weighing in Phil... I have yet to stumble upon one of those "large dens",

   Posted 2 years ago #
5. 

   flip3238
   Member

   I have never been to one these amazing northcentral dens either. The two really big population dens I know are in Carbon and Columbia counties...I cant imagine any bigger than them.

   Posted 2 years ago #
6. 

   Rattler
   Member

   What would guys consider a big den?

   Posted 2 years ago #
7. 

   flip3238
   Member

   The two "big dens" i know in carbon and columbia probably have about 150-200 snakes at each based on what we've seen on good basking days at basking/rookery areas. Some biologist and state guys have said that some of the largest dens in PA could hold over 300 snakes, and they would be found in Northcentral PA....somewhere.

   Posted 2 years ago #
8. 

   Rattler
   Member

   Well i can say that is spent many summers up in a specific area of north central pa and there populations up there are far suppier to the pupulations in my home areas. I am supper excited if i can see a couple in a days adventure around hear, up there i can go to certain basking sites and some forage grounds and see in one day up there what it takes me a summer down here. There is just too much activity and not enough undeveloped acres around here. It often makes me wonder, just how do these poor things survive in my neck of the woods.

   Posted 2 years ago #
9. 

   flip3238
   Member

   This past saturday at the good Columbia county site we saw 20ish gravid females at two outcrops...16-20 at the main rookery and 4 at the other (pics posted on the herp database). We were there in June and saw close to 40 snakes in a pile basking, including several large males and 1 YOY. As a general rule you see a quarter to a third of a population at a basking area on a good day. So even in areas of heavy unregulated snake hunting a few snakes will sneak through...and they are usually nervous of humans after that. A few heavily hunted dens in Wyoming County still hold snakes, and the timbers there act like racers, exploding back into crevices at the site of people.

   Posted 2 years ago #
10. 

    Rattler
    Member

    How long have you been visiting that spot and did you ever notice a decline in the population.

    Posted 2 years ago #
11. 

    flip3238
    Member

    The Columbia County den is a brand new den we just confirmed this past year for the PA Timber Rattlesnake Den Assessment and Inventory Project. We were tipped off to its whereabouts by male snakes getting seen trying to cross a dirt road near the area. The Carbon den has not had a decline that ive noticed since first visiting the area in '04.

    Posted 2 years ago #
12. 

    Rattler
    Member

    Is that study being done by the state. At a spot like that how do you go about studying them with out being so obvious. Heck half the time Im afraid to take a hook with me because I know it raises suspicion when people see you.
    And what is the likley hood that place will be under any threat in the future.(developement, human activity) Also just to let you know I am a very curious person.

    Posted 2 years ago #
13. 

    flip3238
    Member

    The TR assessment and Inventory Project has been an ongoing project by the fish and boat commission that has involved checking old historical sites and also assessing good habitat and following leads to confirm new populations. We all have permits to carry hooks, tubes, bags etc., but we still try to be quiet about what and where we do stuff. Once an area is confirmed, it goes into PNDI which is the database that holds all the data on species of concern. If land is to be developed near these sites the snakes habitats get a buffer and a qualified TR biologist has to be on hand so no snakes are affected by the developement. I believe the buffer snakes receive is quite large (several acres).

    Posted 2 years ago #
14. 

    Rattler
    Member

    I think its great that the commission is doing these studies, the only thing, I wish i could find more out about there findings and where they honestly think we are with the stability of TR in Pa. I also wish they would do more studies in the southern range of the snakes. i.e. my area.

    Posted 2 years ago #
15. 

    Rattler
    Member

    I guess I wish I would have made a different career choice, Im kinda jelous that people actually get to make a living out of that.

    Posted 2 years ago #
16. 

    krloucks
    Moderator

    Personally, I stopped carrying any type of hook. No need for me handling anything. And it also helps to keep it low key.

    Posted 2 years ago #
17. 

    krloucks
    Moderator

    "I think its great that the commission is doing these studies, the only thing, I wish i could find more out about there findings and where they honestly think we are with the stability of TR in Pa. I also wish they would do more studies in the southern range of the snakes. i.e. my area."
    

    This is where your data can be put to good use someday.

    Posted 2 years ago #
18. 

    flip3238
    Member

    I agree with you here Kyle, especially since it sounds as though Rattler is near South Mountain...South Mountain has the lowest concentration of snakes on it out of any area of good TR habitat in the state....you actually need a special permit to legally look for timbers on it, and you cannot keep a TR off that mountain even with the venomous snake license. So the areas you are seeing snakes Rattler could be valuable info.

    Posted 2 years ago #
19. 

    Rattler
    Member

    Another question I have is, we (daughter and I) have been trying to keep track of certain conditions that are present when we find snakes and I was wondering aside from the obvious likesex, color,lenght, temp, cover, time, what should we be looking for and documenting. I read that when Dr. Howard Reinert did his study above Reading that they recorded something like 37 different things.

    Posted 2 years ago #
20. 

    Rattler
    Member

    Located in schuylkill cty. but I do know about the South Mtn. restriction.

    Posted 2 years ago #
21. 

    flip3238
    Member

    Oh cool i confirmed a new den in Schuykill County last Summer near the reservoir.....other things to look at are distance to nearest rock, distance to nearest tree, surrounding vegetation, % canopy cover, orientation of the snake....those are just a few other things to look at.

    Posted 2 years ago #
22. 

    Rattler
    Member

    Yep right out from my house

    Posted 2 years ago #
23. 

    krloucks
    Moderator

    Often debated in other forums are the effects of researchers or hobbyists on TR populations... i.e. the Carbon County state park pop... to which I refer to as the zoo... often I see what seems like the same snake pictured in photos. Do you have an opinion on whether interactions, like yearly surveys, resurveys involving handling have a negative impact on rookeries or home ranges of individual snakes or entire populations?

    Posted 2 years ago #
24. 

    Rattler
    Member

    Matter of fact, I just got home from within that vacinity about an hour ago. People also fish that res. illegally and kill the snakes. There is one family, 2 brothers, that frequent that area and shoot everyone thay see. I went off on one guy before for doing that up state, it is not beyond me to do it again if I catch them. I know its not the right thing to do but the snake cant defend its self against a 9mm but I will. Killing rattlers is a bad subject with me and I try to stay off that subject, heck I'm the one that got me on that subject. By the way, can you say how stable that population is or give any numbers.

    Posted 2 years ago #
25. 

    Rattler
    Member

    You know I wonder tha same thing, there is a place along a very popular trail in Northcentral Pa. that I know gets messed with quite often and I have been visiting that same place for about 10 yrs. I was just there 2 weeks ago and that place seemed as strong as ever with snakes. I also did take notice that the number of people vacationing in that area has dramatically increased over the years and I know that more people are areound them snakes. But all its takes is on person and that is it. I wonder how often the gravid snakes are handled and how many ofspring are lost due to miss handling.

    Posted 2 years ago #
26. 

    krloucks
    Moderator

    I applaud your efforts Rattler, and your research Phil. I will report any mishandling or collecting that is above the law... which is archaic to say the least... what will it take for Pa to repeal,rewrite the rattlesnake/copperhead killing permit. I know it's only one per year but that has to only scratch the surface. I also joined the huntingpa.com forum to help dispell rumors and myths... which is rampant amongst the herpetologically ignorant.

    Posted 2 years ago #
27. 

    paherp
    Admin

    There is a # on the Fish & Boat site for Emergancy Reports such as collecting or killing.

    Posted 2 years ago #
28. 

    Rattler
    Member

    I joined that same forum, just read that last post about the guy killing any snake, he is probably one of those tough outdoorsmen. People just dont understand the balance of mother nature and everything having its place. Also i am a very avid hunter, trapper, fisherman. Heres something else, I really dont care for spiders but i usually let them have there way, recently I found a black widow in my shed. i knew it was one but i let Penn State take a look at it and was confirmed a southern black widow. The spider now resides with a biology teacher at the local high school, alive.

    Posted 2 years ago #
29. 

    krloucks
    Moderator

    I find a lot of Black widows, but none in pa...

    

    Posted 2 years ago #
30. 

    flip3238
    Member

    It is a good question on how much handling effects populations of snakes....I have been doing research for six years at multiple sites where handling was a must....at some of the sites ive caught the same snakes at the same rock dozens of times...at other sites ive never seen the same snake twice. For the fish and boat commission project we only handle snakes at big population sites where pit tagging is done to get better estimates on population sizes. I too wish the "venomous snake permit" was a non killing permit.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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